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Poster: sugaree419 Date: Nov 17, 2006 5:14am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Which is the best Dark Star?

Hey all...
Just wondering which show in your opinion has the best version of Dark Star... my vote is leaning towards the fillmore east show on 5-15-70

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Poster: Old_NJ_Head_Zimmer Date: Nov 17, 2006 8:04am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Which is the best Dark Star?

My favorite is absolutely the Cleveland 12/6/73 - which was pulled from the archive. Unfriggin believable!!! Has it all and 40+ min as well!!!


Cleveland 12/6/73 42:27 is remarkable not only for its scale but for its structure,
which turns the customary Third Stage structure inside-out, working in toward the Dark
Star theme, rather than starting from it, and moving out into space after the 1st vocals
rather than back from it.

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Poster: Earl B. Powell Date: Nov 17, 2006 6:48am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Which is the best Dark Star?

Great work Ian! I'm not really freakish on DS like many, but if you like it, you should really like it when it's dark and foreboding. Miami 10/26/89, sent the trippers crawling the walls with some very ominous power. IMO stands alone in the latter day versions. Handle with care, lock the doors and use the buddy system when listening to this one. Not for the faint of heart.

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Poster: elkdog Date: Nov 17, 2006 7:17am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Which is the best Dark Star?

Though it's quite different than the 1970 Dark Stars, the 11/11/73 Star is one of my favorites, as is 4/8/72 (the one on Steppin' Out). I also enjoy any of the 1974 versions quite a lot.
The only Dark Stars I don't listen to very much are the 1968 versions, and that's because Pigpen's keyboard riff gets pretty repetitive. YMMV. From early '69 on, I love 'em all.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 17, 2006 8:47am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Which is the best Dark Star?

You got that right...we early era types have to take some shit for that...ugh.

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Poster: mcglone Date: Nov 17, 2006 5:57am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Which is the best Dark Star?

somewhere between the one your listening to and the one you have cued up.


CIRCULATING TAPES OF DARK STAR

The following is a list of the 219 live performances of Dark Star plus 4 studio
versions for which tape currently circulates, including three tapes, one from
spring '68, one from May '68 and another from Fall '68, whose venues and exact
dates are unknown. It gives the timing of each, an indication of what is missing
if the tape is fragmentary, and the best tape source for each; the existence of
AUD tapes is usually not indicated if SBD circulates.


American Studios, LA 11/14/67: 2 studio versions 2:48 & 2:41 SBD
LA Studio, late 67: 2:38 SBD Warner Bros Single 7186

Carousel Ballroom 1/17/68: beginning clipped #4:48 SBD
Eureka 1/20/68: breaks off after 3:17 FM-SBD
Seattle 1/22/68: 5:49 SBD
Kings Beach Bowl, Lake Tahoe 1/24/68: 6:49 Dick's Picks 22
Portland 2/3/68: 5:26 SBD
Carousel Ballroom 2/14/68: 5:54 SBD
Carousel Ballroom 3/16/68: 7:20 SBD
Carousel Ballroom 3/26/68: 7:14 SBD
Carousel Ballroom 3/30/68: 8:45 SBD
Alembic Studios, SF early or mid 68: studio rehearsal 11:49 SBD -- formerly dated 11/ or 12/68
UV spring '68: #4:04 SBD only the end of the jam with several minutes missing before it
Unknown Venue 5/68: 16:06 SBD
Fillmore West 8/21/68: beginning missing 14:14 SBD
Fillmore West 8/22/68: 11:19 SBD
Shrine, LA 8/23/68: 15:30 SBD
Shrine, LA 8/24/68: 11:21 SBD Two From The Vault
Avalon 8/28/68: 10:40 SBD
Sky River Festival, Sultan, WA 9/2/68: 13:51 SBD
Unknown Venue Fall '68: 12:12. Probably the Matrix, probably October.
Matrix 10/8/68: 11:40 SBD
Matrix 10/9/68: 13:05 SBD
Avalon 10/12/68: 15:30 SBD Widely circulated mislabeled "10/13/68."
Avalon 10/13/68: beginning missing 13:35 SBD. The actual show for this date.
Greek, Berkeley 10/20/68: 10:05 SBD
Matrix 10/30/68: two Dark Stars on this date, the 2nd with Jack Casady 17:30 & 19:24 SBD
Chico 11/1/68: 11:30 SBD
Columbus 11/22/68 beginning missing 12:47 AUD
Bellarmine College, Louisville 12/7/68: beginning missing 13:24 SBD
Gulfstream Raceway, Hallendale, FL 12/29/68: 10:26 SBD

Santa Barbara 1/17/69: 13:18 SBD
Avalon 1/24/69: 18:59 SBD
Avalon 1/25/69: beginning missing #14:08 SBD
Avalon 1/26/69: 9:#45 with cut in middle SBD
St. Paul 2/2/69: 15:33 SBD
Omaha 2/4/69: 13:15 SBD
Kansas City 2/5/69: beginning missing 11:43 SBD
St. Louis 2/6/69: 13:54 cut in the middle SBD
Pittsburgh 2/7/69: 14:09
Fillmore East 2/11/69: 12:29 SBD Good Morning Little Schoolgirl (Arista)
Philadelphia 2/14/69: first bar clipped 19:23 SBD
Philadelphia 2/15/69: 22:42 SBD
Dream Bowl, Vallejo 2/21/69: 22:22. SBD
Vallejo 2/22/69: 22:17 SBD
*Fillmore West 2/27/69: 23:05 SBD Live Dead
Fillmore West 2/28/69: 19:50 SBD
Fillmore West 3/1/69: 22:48 SBD
Fillmore West 3/2/69: 20:37 SBD
SF Hilton 3/15/69: 19:07 SBD
Pasadena 3/22/69: 15:25 SBD
Modesto 3/28/69: 22:45 SBD. Formerly mislabeled "Merced 3/27/69".
Las Vegas 3/29/69: 21:15 SBD
Avalon 4/4/69: 20:18 SBD
Avalon 4/5/69: 18:39 SBD
Tucson 4/11/69: 20:20 SBD
Salt Lake City 4/12/69: #22:21 SBD
*Boulder 4/13/69: 24:01 SBD
Worcester 4/20/69: 21:12 SBD
The Ark, Boston 4/21/69: 22:51 SBD
*Boston 4/22/69: 30:42 SBD
Boston Ark 4/23/69: 21:02 SBD
Chicago 4/26/69: 1:25 SBD
*Minneapolis 4/27/69: 26:37 SBD Dick's Picks
Polo Field, Golden Gate Park, SF 5/7/69: 22:19 SBD
Rose Palace, Pasadena 5/10/69: 20:59 SBD
Hollywood, FL 5/23/69: 18:47 SBD
McArthur Court, Eugene 5/31/69: 23:58 SBD
Fillmore West 6/5/69: 21:11 SBD
Fillmore West 6/7/69: 20:46 SBD
Monterey 6/14/69: 15:10 SBD
Fillmore East 6/21/69 Late Show: nearly all of central jam missing 7:#43 SBD
Central Park, NYC 6/22/69: beginning missing and with cut in middle 12:01 B+ AUD
Santa Rosa 6/27/69: 25:49 SBD
Electric Theater, Chicago 7/5/69: 18:11 SBD
*Piedmont Park, Atlanta 7/7/69: 26:58 SBD
Queens 7/12/69: 9:40 mildly degraded SBD
Woodstock 8/16/69: 17:50 SBD
Seattle 8/20/69: 6:38 SBD
St. Helens, OR 8/23/69: 1st vocals missing 26:#44 SBD.
*Family Dog 8/28/69: 63:#51 SBD (Dark Star 31:16 # 16:03 > Eleven jam 9:49 > Dark Star 6:43)
[*w/ Howard Wales & w/o Weir, McKernan, or Constanten]
*Family Dog 8/30/69: 28:56 SBD
New Orleans 9/1/69: 17:47 mildly degraded SBD
Fillmore East 9/26/69: beginning missing 17:24 B AUD
Winterland 10/25/69: 21:42 SBD
*Family Dog 11/2/69: 30:06 SBD
Fillmore 11/7/69: 25:43 with a cut in the middle SBD
*Fillmore 11/8/69: DS 14:05 > Other 11:52 > DS 1:55 > UJB's jam 2:23 > DS 3:01 SBD Dick's Picks
Fillmore West 12/4/69: 30:55 mildly degraded SBD
Thelma Theater 12/11/69: 19:53 SBD
Dallas 12/26/69: 26:00 SBD
Boston Tea Party 12/30/69: 19:06 with end missing SBD

Fillmore East 1/2/70: 30:10 with the end missing SBD
Corvalis 1/17/70: 20:51 SBD
Honolulu 1/23/70: 18:14 SBD
St. Louis 2/2/70: 21:54 SBD
*Fillmore West 2/8/70: 26:43 excellent AUD
Fillmore East 2/11/70: 17:02 > Spanish Jam 9:40 composite of excellent AUD and SBD
*Fillmore East 2/13/70: 29:46 SBD Dick's Picks
Fillmore East 2/14/70: 23:36 SBD
Pirate's World, Dania FL 3/24/70: 4:54 + 8:54 = 13:48 SBD with cut as noted
*Denver 4/24/70: 24:39 A minus AUD
Fillmore East 5/15/70: 19:24 SBD
Newcastle 5/24/70: 21:21 SBD
Port Chester 6/24/70: 10:20 ... 7:48 ... 3:01 near excellent AUD
*Fillmore East 9/17/70: 27:10 near excellent AUD
Fillmore East 9/19/70: 24:58 SBD
Paterson 10/11/70: beginning missing 20:19 near excellent AUD
Port Chester 11/5/70: 21:00 near excellent AUD
Port Chester 11/8/70: 24:48 excellent AUD

Port Chester 2/18/71: DS 7:11 > Wharf Rat 9:59 > 7:55 SBD
Boston 4/8/71: 14:25 SBD
Fillmore East 4/26/71: 13:45 SBD
Fillmore East 4/28/71: 14:26 SBD
Yale Bowl 7/31/71: 21:20 B+ AUD
Chicago 10/21/71: DS 14:53 > Sittin 3:14 > DS 2:16 somewhat degraded FM
Detroit 10/24/71: 20:59 SBD
Columbus 10/31/71: 23:14 SBD. Dicks Picks
Harding Theater, SF 11/7/71: 13:15 SBD
Austin 11/15/71: DS 12:35 > El Paso 4:35 > DS 7:40 SBD
Felt Forum, NYC 12/5/71: DS 8:30 > My Uncle 2:30 > DS 12:56 SBD
Ann Arbor 12/15/71: 20:30 SBD

Academy of Music 3/23/72: 22:43 SBD
*London 4/8/72: 31:30 SBD Steppin' Out
*Copenhagen 4/14/72: 29:14 SBD, FM & AUD
**Dusseldorf 4/24/72: DS 25:15 > My Uncle 2:99 > 15:06 degraded SBD patched with AUD
Hamburg 4/29/72: 29:26 SBD also excellent AUD
Paris 5/4/72: 40:03 SBD
Manchester 5/7/72: 19:27 SBD
*Rotterdam 5/11/72: 47:20 SBD
Munich 5/18/72: 27:20 SBD
London 5/23/72: 31:16 SBD
*London 5/25/72: 35:08 SBD
*Jersey City 7/18/72: 28:57 SBD
Portland 7/26/72: 30:49 SBD
*BCT 8/21/72: 27:34 SBD
BCT 8/24/72 27:10 SBD
*Veneta, Oregon 8/27/72: 31:44 SBD
Hollywood 9/10/72: 34:59 SBD w/ Crosby
Boston 9/16/72: 26:56 SBD with conclusion patched with excellent AUD
**Philadelphia 9/21/72: 37:22 SBD
*Waterbury 9/24/72: 34:13 SBD
Jersey City 9/27/72: 31:14 SBD Dick's Picks
*St. Louis 10/18/72: 28:02 FM-AUD Bear's AUD master, FM-broadcast; SBD
Milwaukee 10/23/72: 27:03 near excellent AUD
Cincinnati 10/26/72: 21:10 SBD
Cleveland 10/28/72: 27:43 Bear's AUD master
*Kansas City 11/13/72: 33:36 Bear's AUD master patched @ 11:17 w/ 1:35 of 2nd AUD master
*Houston 11/19/72: 31:22 SBD
San Antonio 11/26/72: 24:52 SBD
Winterland 12/11/72: 33:26 SBD
Long Beach 12/15/72: 23:03 SBD

Madison 2/15/73: 19:17 SBD
Champaign 2/22/73: 13:49 SBD
*Lincoln 2/26/73: 25:18 SBD
Nassau 3/16/73: 26:46 SBD
Utica 3/21/73: 21:41 SBD
Philadelphia 3/24/73: 25:36 SBD
*Springfield 3/28/73: 32:14 SBD (de-hummed), also excellent AUD
*Washington, D.C. 6/10/73: 26:08 SBD
*Portland 6/24/73: 26:35 SBD
Universal Amph. 6/30/73: 16:15 SBD
Jersey City 8/1/73: 24:52 SBD
William & Mary 9/11/73: 21:42 excellent AUD, also SBD
*Oklahoma City 10/19/73: 27:12 SBD Dick's Picks
Madison 10/25/73: 23:14 SBD
St. Louis 10/30/73: 26:59 SBD
**Winterland 11/11/73: 36:08. SBD
Denver 11/21/73: 3:25 SBD
Boston 11/30/73: 9:08 SBD Dick's Picks 14.
**Cleveland 12/6/73: 43:28 SBD
Tampa 12/18/73: 20:56 SBD

*Winterland 2/24/74: 28:54 SBD
Missoula 5/14/74: 26:41 SBD
Miami 6/23/74: 21:52 great AUD, also SBD
Chicago 7/25/74: 23:59 SBD
*London 9/10/74: 31:03 SBD Dick's Picks
Winterland 10/18/74: 31:34 SBD

Winterland 12/31/78: 12:30 & 1:11 SBD

Nassau 1/10/79: 18:28 mildly degraded SBD
Buffalo 1/20/79: 9:16 A minus AUD

Oakland Aud 12/31/81: 14:50 SBD

Greek Theater, Berkeley 7/13/84: 16:09 SBD

Hampton 10/9/89: 18:30 SBD
Brendan Byrne 10/16/89: 11:36. 5:23 SBD
**Miami 10/26/89: 29:06 SBD
Oakland 12/31/89: 14:48 SBD

Nassau 3/29/90: 18.18 & 2:51 SBD w/ Branford Marsalis.
*Washington, D.C. 7/12/90: 25:18 SBD with missing end patched with excellent AUD
*NYC 9/20/90: DS 12:01 > Playin 5:00 > DS 14:37 SBD
Berlin 10/20/90: 13:07, 4:07 SBD
London 11/1/90: 10:00 ... 10:48 SBD
Denver 12/12/90: 13:46 SBD
Denver 12/14/90: 7:10 SBD
*Oakland 12/31/90: 20:39 SBD w/ Branford Marsalis.

Greensboro 4/1/91: 23:31 & 1:16 SBD
RFK, Washington, D.C. 6/14/91: 10:45 SBD
Giants 6/17/91: 1:28 ... 1:22 ... 1:00 ... 9:48 ... 0:34 SBD
Chicago 6/22/91: 7:03 SBD
Denver 6/28/91: 1:28 SBD
Shoreline 8/16/91: 10:17 SBD
Shoreline 8/17/91: 1:18 SBD
Richfield 9/6/91: 3:18 SBD
MSG, NYC 9/8/91: 10:30 SBD
MSG, NYC 9/10/91: 12:29 & 12:40 SBD w/ Branford Marsalis
Boston Garden 9/24/91: 14:18 SBD
Boston Garden 9/26/91: 15:50 & 6:46 SBD
Oakland 10/31/91: 11:16 & 3:18 SBD w/ Ken Kesey.

Landover 3/9/92: 11:30 near excellent AUD, also SBD
Hamilton, Ontario 3/20/92: 14:27 near excellent AUD, also SBD
Richfield 6/8/92: 8:52 near excellent AUD, also reportedly degraded SBD
Charlotte 6/18/92: 6:00 SBD
Pittsburg 6/22/92: 4:05 SBD
Oakland 12/12/92: 12:14 & 5:44 SBD
Oakland 12/16/92: 7:09 SBD

Landover 3/17/93: 10:26 SBD
Deer Creek 6/23/93: 6:14 SBD
Philadelphia 9/13/93: 5:36 SBD
MSG, NYC 9/22/93: 7:31 SBD w/ David Murray

Rosemont 3/16/94: 11:14. B+ AUD, also FM-SBD
Atlanta 3/30/94: 10:21 SBD


*, ** = remarkable Dark Stars: * & ** = Top 40. ** = Top Five.


DARK STARS STILL MISSING FROM CIRCULATION

There are 21 dates on which reportedly Dark Star was played, but for which no tape
yet circulates. These dates, and the sources of the claims, are:


Shrine Aud, LA 12/13/67 -- DeadBase

King's Beach Bowl, Lake Tahoe 2/22/68 -- David Lemieux (defective vault SBD)
Carousel Ballroom 3/17/68 -- DeadBase
National Guard Armory, St. Louis MO 5/24/68 -- Latvala, but this may be a mislabel of 2/6/69
Carousel 6/7/68 -- DeadBase
Fillmore West 8/20/68 -- DeadBase
Hyde Park Teen Center, Cincinnati 11/24/68 -- DeadBase
Winterland 12/31/68 -- DeadBase

Fillmore East 2/12/69 -- Rob Eaton
Fillmore West 2/19/69 -- DeadLists
Washington University, St. Louis 4/17/69 -- Latvala
Winterland, 5/3/69 -- DeadBase
Springer's Hall, Portland, OR 5/30/69 -- Latvala; audience member
Family Dog At The Great Highway 8/3/69 -- Latvala
Fillmore 12/20/69 -- DeadBase

Buffalo 3/17/70 w/ symphony orchestra -- DeadBase
Fillmore West 4/11/70 -- DeadBase
Mammoth Gardens, Denver 4/25/70 -- DeadBase
York Farm, Poynette, Wisconsin 4/26/70 -- audience member Ron Ramsey
46th St. Rock Palace, Brooklyn, NYC 11/13/70 -- audience member

[Bucknell University, Lewisburg, PA 4/14/71 -- DeadBase's list is probably wrong]

Copenhagen 4/17/72 -- DeadBase

*

Kokomo (Billy & Brent's band from the mid-80s) played Dark Star at least
twice:

Unknown Venue 8/19/84 12:35 AUD
Casino Club, Hampton Beach 85-86: 10:16# AUD breaks off before conclusion


Identification of the unknown venue & unknown date would be much appreciated



AUD DARK STARS

Of the 219 live Dark Stars currently circulating on tape, 16 circulate only or
primarily on AUD tape. These tapes are:


Columbus 11/22/68: beginning missing 12:47 B+ AUD
Central Park, NYC 6/22/69: beginning missing & cut in middle 12:01 B AUD
Fillmore East 9/26/69: beginning missing 17:24 B AUD

Fillmore West 2/8/70: 26:43 A AUD
Denver 4/24/70: 24:39 A- AUD
Port Chester 6/24/70: 10:20 ... 7:48 ... 3:01 A- AUD
Fillmore East 9/17/70: 27:10 near excellent AUD
Paterson 10/11/70: beginning missing 20:19 B+ AUD
Port Chester 11/5/70: 21:00 A- AUD
Port Chester 11/8/70: 24:48 A AUD

Yale Bowl 7/31/71: 21:39 B+ AUD

Milwaukee 10/23/72: 27:03 B+/A- AUD
Cleveland 10/28/72: 27:43 A AUD Bear's AUD master, FM-broadcast
Kansas City 11/13/72: 32:16 A AUD Bear's AUD master, w/ 1:42 gap patched w/ B+ AUD

Buffalo 1/20/79: 9:16 A- AUD

Richfield 6/8/92: 8:52 A- AUD



3 DEFECTIVE SBD DARK STARS

Of the 219 live and 4 studio Dark Stars currently circulating on tape, 203
circulate in SBD. Among these there are 3 SBDs that are markedly defective in sound quality:

Queens 7/12/69: 9:40 degraded SBD
New Orleans 9/1/69: 17:47 degraded SBD
Dusseldorf 4/24/72: DS 25:15 > My Uncle 2:99 > 15:06 degraded SBD p/w AUD B


Dusseldorf 4/24/72 is by far the single most important Dark Star for which we
still lack prime quality tape in circulation. The best copies available consist
of a rather degraded SBD cassette patched with about 2 minutes from the B grade AUD.
The SBD cassette flips at 18:02 into the Dark Star and there is missing 2:19 in the
flip, which can be supplied from the AUD tape. We really need a fresh transcript
of the SBD or, far better, a mix-down from multi-track.



FRAGMENTARY DARK STARS

Of the 219 live Dark Stars currently circulating on tape, at least 24 are fragmentary.


Carousel Ballroom 1/17/68: cuts in near the beginning 4:48.

Eureka 1/20/68: cuts after 3:17 on the master SBD

Columbus 11/22/68: beginning missing 12:47 AUD

UV spring '68: #4:04 SBD only the end of the jam with several minutes missing
before it

Fillmore West 8/21/68: 2-5 minutes are missing from the begining of this 14:14
fragment of SBD

Avalon 10/13/68: This 13:35 fragment is missing its beginning (unlike the Avalon
10/12/68, which circulated for years mislabeled "10/13/68" -- so if you think you
have a "complete" 10/13/68 Dark Star, what you have is in fact the 12th)

Bellarmine College, Louisville, KY 12/7/68: The first minute or two of this 13:24
SBD fragment is missing.

Avalon 1/25/69: beginning missing #14:08 SBD

Avalon Ballroom, San Francisco 1/26/69: There is a piece missing in the middle of
this 9:45 fragment of SBD.

Soldiers & Sailors, Kansas City 2/5/69: The opening of this 11:43 SBD fragment is
missing.

St. Louis 2/6/69: There is something missing from the middle of this 13:54 SBD
fragment.

Philadelphia 2/14/69: first bar clipped 19:23 SBD

Salt Lake City 4/12/69: something missing at the start #22:21 SBD

Fillmore East 6/21/69 Late Show: nearly all of central jam missing 7:#43 SBD

Central Park, NYC 6/22/69: The first minute or so of this Dark Star is missing
on the AUD tape, which also has a cut around 10 minutes in before breaking off
after 12:01.

St. Helens, OR 8/23/69: 1st vocals missing 26:#44 SBD.

Family Dog 8/28/69: 47:#19 (31:16 + 16:03) > The Eleven jam 9:49 > Dark Star
6:43 + 63:#51 SBD w/ Howard Wales

Fillmore East 9/26/69: beginning missing 17:24 B AUD

Fillmore 11/7/69: The circulating SBD has a cut at 19:57, 1:35 after the
beginning of the Uncle John's jam, followed by another almost 6 minutes to make
up this 25:43 fragment.

Boston Tea Party 12/30/69: This Dark Star cuts off after 18:53 on the SBD.
Probably 2-3 minutes more are missing here on the master.

Fillmore East 1/2/70: 30:10 with the end missing SBD

Pirate's World, Dania FL 3/24/70: 4:54 + 8:54 = 13:48 SBD with cut as noted

Paterson 10/11/70: beginning missing 20:19 near excellent AUD

Waterbury 9/24/72 34:13 there is a cut at 0:53



Some of these Dark Stars may be intact on the masters -- possibilities include
1/25/69, 1/26/69, 2/5/69, 2/6/69, 4/12/69, 9/24/72, and especially:

6/21/69 Late Show: Rob Eaton lists 101 minutes of cassette SBD for this show,
but only 91 circulates. One would guess that at least 10 minutes are missing
from the circulating Dark Star.

11/7/69: Eaton lists 122 minutes of reel SBD but only about 103 minutes circulate.
There is room to hope that the complete tape contains the complete Dark Star.

The rest of these Dark Stars are almost certainly fragmentary on the masters of
the circulating tapes.


*****


DARK STAR: THE EVOLUTION


Dark Star 'matured' -- and doubled in length -- during the October '68 Matrix shows.
The first full-grown ripe Dark Stars are the Live Dead Dark Stars of the first half
of '69. There are more than 30 versions circulating on tape. The structure of this
Dark Star (a "Live Dead", or "First Stage" Dark Star) is as follows

DS theme & jam > 1st vocals > jam > DS theme jam & 2nd vocals > transition > another
tune (e.g. St. Stephen)


The Second Stage Dark Star evolved during the summer of '69 -- primarily by the moderate
expansion of the jamming before 1st vocals and the addition of "space" after the 1st
vocals. Its structure is as follows

DS theme & jams > 1st vocals > space > additional jam > DS theme jam & 2nd vocals
(or Tiger) > transition >

Family Dog 8/30/69 28:56 and Winterland 10/25/69 22:05 are fine examples of '69
Second Stage Dark Stars.

The Third Stage Dark Star does not emerge full-blown until '72 but several performances
in '69 and '70 anticipate it, notably; Family Dog 11/2/69 30:06, Fillmore West 2/8/70
26:43 AUD, Fillmore East 2/13/70 29:46, and Fillmore East 9/17/70 27:10 AUD.

After 11/8/70 they dropped the second vocals. They revive them at the Academy of
Music 3/23/72 23:34 and once more at Portland 7/26/72 30:49, and then not again
until the Dark Stars of '89 - '94.

The climactic Third Stage Dark Star only appears full-formed in Europe '72. It's
structure is

DS theme & jam > additional jams > return to DS theme jam & 1st vocals > space >
additional jams > Tiger > more jamming > transition >

After the appearance of the Second Stage Dark Star, nearly all Dark Stars take this
form, but after the appearance of the prototypical Third Stage Dark Star there are
still many Second Stage Dark Stars -- 'Second Stage' because they lack the additional
jams (plural) both before and after the 1st vocals. For instance, the Tiger appears
in many Second Stage Dark Stars as the climax of the post-space jamming. What distinguishes
Third Stage Tigers is that The Tiger is just one episode in a series of jams following
space -- sometimes it forms the climax & leads to transitional jamming into the next song;
other times further episodes of jamming follow it (Sputnik, Feelin Groovy Jam, Mind Left
Body Jam, ...)

Third Stage Dark Stars tend to be more than 30 minutes long. Obvious examples are

Wembley London 4/8/72 31:30
Dusseldorf 4/24/72 42:58 (including 3:10 of Me & My Uncle)
London 5/25/72 35:13
Hollywood Pavillion 9/10/72 34:59
Philadelphia 9/21/72 37:22
Waterbury 9/24/72 34:13
Kansas City 11/13/72 32:16
Houston 11/19/72 31:22
Winterland 12/11/72 32:43
Springfield 3/28/73 32:14
Oklahoma City 10/19/73 28:49
Winterland 11/11/73 35:12
Cleveland 12/6/73 42:27


Rotterdam 5/11/72 48:38 is the longest Dark Star known besides Family Dog 8/28/69 63:#51

Winterland 10/18/74 31:34 represent the tune's dissolution into space.


Cleveland 12/6/73 42:27 is remarkable not only for its scale but for its structure,
which turns the customary Third Stage structure inside-out, working in toward the Dark
Star theme, rather than starting from it, and moving out into space after the 1st vocals
rather than back from it.

Besides the Dark Star Gigantea, or Third Stage Dark Star, another remarkable species
of Dark Star is the Dark Star Ferox. These don't have quite the 30-minute plus dimensions
of the Third Stage Dark Stars but they have a characteristic fierceness of attack &
intensity that makes them stand out. Obvious examples are

Austin 11/15/71: 26:04 (including 4:46 of El Paso)
Hamburg 4/29/72 29:26
Madison 10/25/72 24:04

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Poster: gdave Date: Nov 17, 2006 1:17pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Which is the best Dark Star?

Thanks for putting this up.

Who decided which were top 5 and top 40?

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Poster: sugaree419 Date: Nov 17, 2006 6:14am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Which is the best Dark Star?

WOW ...Great reference mcglone... Thanks =)

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Poster: cosmicharlie Date: Nov 17, 2006 6:43am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Which is the best Dark Star?

I've used that list as gospel for years now, the document also rates some of them from 1* to 2**stars (which I have most of)
direwolf got me the final ** (out of only 5)that I did'nt have, which is 4/24/72 ...thanks again!

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Poster: elkdog Date: Nov 17, 2006 7:16am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Which is the best Dark Star?

And since that document was produced, 4/17/72 has begun to circulate, and it's, well, terrific.

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Poster: cosmicharlie Date: Nov 17, 2006 7:22am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Which is the best Dark Star?

4/17/72?! thanks for the headzup on that! I'll have to do a torrent search

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Poster: elkdog Date: Nov 17, 2006 7:37am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Which is the best Dark Star?

I know it was up at shnflac. Unfortunately I don't have the files on my drive anymore, so I can't offer a reseed myself. It's a fairly miraculous recording, well worth seeking out.

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Jan 10, 2007 9:40am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Which is the best Dark Star?

Hey Dude!

Cliff just made a shortcut to your excellent list!

Grateful...

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Nov 17, 2006 6:34am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Which is the best Dark Star?

Thats like asking what is the best flavor of ice cream.

Plenty of profound versions available on CD as well.

2/13/70
8/27/72
2/27/69
2/28/69
3/1/69

For some reason, one of my favorites is 10/31/71...

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Poster: sugaree419 Date: Nov 17, 2006 6:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Which is the best Dark Star?

let me rephrase... which is your favorite DS?...=)

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Nov 17, 2006 6:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Which is the best Dark Star?

i'll second that 10/31/71 - just an AWESOME segue into sugar mag - never tire of listening to that!!

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Poster: not_a_typical_daydream Date: Nov 17, 2006 11:36pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Which is the best Dark Star?

I am not sure why noone has mentioned 2/24/74, Dark Star> Dew> Sugar Mags. And check out the China/Rider. This show just about has everything.

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Poster: blackclouds Date: Nov 18, 2006 5:06pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Which is the best Dark Star?

I like the Dusseldorf DS, and the official release sound is superb, especially the second part after Me and My Uncle. There are two jams in that section, light and optimistic, unheard elsewhere, followed by a meltdown. Try it (ipod) when going to bed: lay back and find your way into sleepy land....it's like sinking into the deep stillness of the subtle body (that's from my India days).

I like the '73 versions and there are many favorites. One is the 11-11-73 at Winterland. This is partly an "I was there" bias, but the space at the 20 min mark is other-worldly, and the meltdown at 30 min (well, who is keeping time, anyway?) segue MLBJ into Eyes... Not bad.



This post was modified by blackcloud on 2006-11-19 01:05:23

This post was modified by blackcloud on 2006-11-19 01:06:24

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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 17, 2006 5:43am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Which is the best Dark Star?

Good; but I must go with 9-19-70...transcendent. Others will list perhaps more complex ones, or musically structured ones, but the note production will just about melt you at the 22 min mark.

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Nov 17, 2006 6:12pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Which is the best Dark Star?

Streaming now...

One of the very first shows I streamed when I first discovered archive, I had forgotten just how phenomenal this version is. Certainly a top 5, thanks!

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Poster: elkdog Date: Nov 17, 2006 7:23am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Which is the best Dark Star?

That's the one from the day after Hendrix died. I think you can tell.

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Poster: DeadDave50 Date: Nov 17, 2006 8:20am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Which is the best Dark Star?

I have Greyfolded playing right now...interesting speaking of Darkstar........

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Poster: sydthecat Date: Nov 17, 2006 8:37am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Which is the best Dark Star?

My tastses change. But lately Miami 1989 and Washington 1990 as well as 9/19/70 which remains an all time fave for me.

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Poster: countmlbjam Date: Nov 17, 2006 9:08am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Which is the best Dark Star?

For an underrated star check out 6-24-73, very nice!!

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Poster: Max Chorak Date: Nov 17, 2006 10:38am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Which is the best Dark Star?

"Dusseldorf 4/24/72 is by far the single most important Dark Star for which we
still lack prime quality tape in circulation. The best copies available consist
of a rather degraded SBD cassette patched with about 2 minutes from the B grade AUD.
The SBD cassette flips at 18:02 into the Dark Star and there is missing 2:19 in the
flip, which can be supplied from the AUD tape. We really need a fresh transcript
of the SBD or, far better, a mix-down from multi-track. "

Why is this "by far the single most important Dark Star"?

is it because it just sounds the best?


Also that list of the 21 missing dark stars just rips a hole in my heart. ha..

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Poster: Max Chorak Date: Nov 17, 2006 10:44am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Which is the best Dark Star?

Holy Toledo! I'm listening to the Family Dog 8-28-69 right now. It isn't the dead playing, TC, weir, and pig weren't at the show.. but they have a keyboardist.. "Howard Wales".. reminds me of whoever did keyboard in Emerson Lake And PAlmer.. I think it was Greg.. Anyways, its really cool.. and Wales' keyboarding totally synergizes with Garcia's tasty licks too. I'd recommend giving it a listen. It only was downloaded 1,808 times.

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Poster: TheGreat_and_Knowledgable Date: Nov 17, 2006 12:26pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Which is the best Dark Star?

i personally love the rocking the rhein and live/dead DS's. I have some of the 70-73's listed here and they are all fairly good. But, the released ones are my favorites.

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Poster: doodle Date: Nov 17, 2006 7:07pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Which is the best Dark Star?

For an easily avaialble one, the Dark Star off of the Grateful Dead Movie Soundtrack is one of my favorites (I forget which day specifically in Oct. it is). The playing is great and jazzy, it never really drifts off into that dissonant sort of sound/"noise" section. I know some folks love that every time, but for me sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't. And Billy K is just so sweet in that version too. He really drives that particular one. The work between him and Garcia make that one special for me, as well as the fact that that was the version (into Dew) that I very often had on while writing countless papers in Grad school.

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Poster: sydthecat Date: Nov 19, 2006 4:08pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Which is the best Dark Star?

10/18/74 A superb Dark Star. A majestic Dark Star out of Phil and Ned.

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Poster: gphishmon Date: Jan 1, 2007 12:39am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Which is the best Dark Star?

Sorry about the double post - let's add 12/31/90 to that list.

I don't know if I've posted on this yet, since I can't see the whole thread, but

Limiting it to self-contained Dark Stars (that leaves out 9/20/90, for example), I would say 8/27/72 is still the one that gets me off the most. Also gotta give props to 2/27/69 (Live Dead), 2/28/69, 4/8/72, 4/14/72, 9/21/72, 6/10/73, 10/30/73, 11/11/73, 10/9/89, 10/26/89, 3/29/90, and 7/12/90, though I'd have to listen to the 73's again. That's out of my limited listening.

I'd love to see a poll with about 20 listed - except no matter how many were listed, someone would complain that their favorite was left out.


This post was modified by gphishmon on 2007-01-01 08:39:44

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Poster: gphishmon Date: Jan 1, 2007 12:22am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Which is the best Dark Star?

I don't know if I've posted on this yet, since I can't see the whole thread, but

Limiting it to self-contained Dark Stars (that leaves out 9/20/90, for example), I would say 8/27/72 is still the one that gets me off the most. Also gotta give props to 2/27/69 (Live Dead), 2/28/69, 4/8/72, 4/14/72, 9/21/72, 6/10/73, 10/30/73, 11/11/73, 10/9/89, 10/26/89, 3/29/90, and 7/12/90, though I'd have to listen to the 73's again. That's out of my limited listening.

I'd love to see a poll with about 20 listed - except no matter how many were listed, someone would complain that their favorite was left out.

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Poster: cosmicharlie Date: Nov 17, 2006 10:43am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Which is the best Dark Star?

4/24/72 is available as Rockin' the Rhein at deadnet

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